Curse

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

After reading this thread on GWO, I decided to research the origin of the wardens. (To those who intend to read that thread, it is a thread on the Slyvari and a possible link to the Wardens due to the origins and Urgoz’s tree-look). This research is to find who or what the Wardens were before being Wardens, or where they came form. Also, to show why the Wardens are similar/different from other similar races.

Wardens

The Wardens live in only one place, the Echovald Forest, which means that they are bound to that area. That means that they have to deal with the Forest itself, and cannot/do not want to move to other locations.

According to the Factions Manual:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Guild Wars Factions Manuscripts

The mysterious and ancient Wardens guard the areas of Cantha hit the hardest by Shiro’s legacy. Protectors of the Echovald that was, they now guard the petrified forest it has become. They may once have been human, perhaps powerful gruids or holy men, but they long ago merged with the spirit they served to become something altogether different.

Now they stand as the ultimate protectors of the Echovald that is. The clan claims the right of vengeance for what Shiro Tagachi wrought, and blames all humans for the Jade Wind that stripped the woods and sea of life, but inexplicably left the Wardens unharmed. Driven nearly mad, enraged at their failure to fulfill their only purpose, they work in their own mysterious ways to reverse the effects of Shiro’s death, but until the succeed, they will threaten any humans they encounter.

Wardens do not take names as such, but take their monikers from their rank in the clan’s natural hierarchy. The lowest rank, least powerful Wardens are Associated with the smallest forms and shapes of nature-leaves, moss, seashells, and so on. Higher Up are those Wardens who take their name from particular trees or larger forms of sea life, while those protectors that lead the clans take the names of the seasons.

So according to the Factions Manual, the wardens were once humans, most likely druids, that merged their essence with the forest. So that removes the idea that was on GWO about the Wardens being born like the Slyari, and therefore removes the possible link.

Although removing a link from one forest-dweller, it makes another to a different type of forest-dwellers. The Druids. The Druids, as evident from the Scriptures of Melandru, were once humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scriptures of Melandru

And it was that a tribe of godless humans wandered the land. Where camped did they lay waste, senselessly destroying everything nearby.
And so the tribe set out to find another camp, when suddenly sprouted a wall of thorny branches, which blocked their exit.
Then saith Ewan, leader of the tribe, "Know ye our ways. Whosoever does magic in this tribe shall be put to death."
Yet none comes forward. Then, from the earth grows forth a large tree, and unfurling its branches, reveals the upper torso of a woman. Saith She, "I am Melandru, the Mother of earth and nature. Henceforth I bind ye to these lands. When they suffer, so shall ye suffer."
And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.
-- Scriptures of Melandru: 48 BE

The Druids gave up not only their individuality, but their flesh as well. They took their involvement with nature a step farther then the Wardens. Another way to help the connection between the Wardens and Druids would be the quest dialogue for Wicked Wardens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunmel Gorhopf

For generations, my family has worked to protect the forest and its precious resorces. In fact, it was my great-great-great grandmother who first noticed the connection between the wardens and the spirit of the forest. She realized that the wardens were doing the work of the forest spirit, protecting innocent travelers, punishing those who harmed the forest's creatures, and helping to guide the forest through the cycle of life and death.

After the Jade Wind came, we thought that the forest spirit had been destroyed or corrupted, for the wardens turned hostile and began attacking anyone and everything in sight. And now, this new plague seems to have made them even more crazed and hostile.

We've begun a campaign to eliminate the corrupted wardens, and we hope that by doing so, the ancient forest spirit, if it still lives, will awaken and breath life into this forest once more. Unfortunately, with the war against the Luxons heating up, most of our capable fighters have been sent to the front lines. If you will eliminate any wardens you come across as you travel the forest, we'd be extremely grateful.

This dialogue supports both the Factions Manual and the theorized connection to the Druids. Druids combined their essence to the Maguuma, Wardens to the Echovald. The reason why the Wardens are hostile and the Druids are not is because of the corruption that took place during the Jade Wind.

Urgoz

Another thing that must be looked at is Urgoz himself. Urgoz is the leader of the wardens and he was corrupted by the Jade Wind. Because of the game mechanics, the wardens will always attack the players and other NPCs. Lore wise, Urgoz was killed shortly after Shiro was defeated in Cantha, and according to the Eye of the North manual, when the earth quakes start occurring, the Echoald Forest is starting to become green and no longer petrified. So, with Urgoz, my theory to introduce is: Was Urgoz what kept the Wardens mad and the Echovald Forest petrified?

My reasoning for this first deals with the Eye of the North Manual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Guild Wars Eye of the North Manuscripts

Over the past few years, life has begun to spring up in Echovald Forest ass many areas have seen new groth take hold. Some even claim to have seen in the Jade Sea – small pools of water forming or even waves moving beneath the frozen surface – but these reports are unsubstantiated rumors at best.

Clearly after Urgoz’s defeat the Echovald Forest is returning to how it was. Of course, this can also be said to be the result of Abaddon’s defeat, as it was his power that corrupted the Echovald Forest. I disagree with the Abaddon theory on this, because although it was his power that corrupted, the Realm of Torment is still rather messed up after his defeat. I think that the ones who kept the corruption in the Echovald forest was Urgoz, the corruption in the Jade Sea was Kanaxai, and the Realm of Torment was Mallyx, at least after Abaddon’s defeat(for Mallyx that is).

Another fact that supports my theory that Urgoz was the one keeping the corruption in the Echovald Forest present is that the closer to Urgoz the players get, the more “Maddened” the enemies are, you have Maddened Dredges and Maddened Wardens for example. The Wardens are only maddened when they are near Urgoz, why? Because he caused them to become mad.
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In summary, Wardens are not like Slyvari, which are born from seeds. Wardens were once humans who gave up their humanity to be able to protect the Echovald Forest, which makes them more like the Druids of the Maguuma then the Slyvari. Also, Urgoz is what kept the Wardens as being hostile and kept the Echovald Forest petrified.

Thanks for taking your time to read my research and theory.

GaaaaaH · Jun 09, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Thats very in depth and logical (to me) and i can honestly say that i never thought about any of that. Good work!

(also: the links dont work properly)

Mark Nevermiss · Jun 09, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I wish there was a warden NPC, as there are, for example, Dredge NPC's that give quests and give more insight into the history of their people.

Nice research though I disagree with the reasoning behind the return of life to the Forest and Jade Sea. I believe it was bound to happen sooner or later. Even before EoTN we see lots of signs of growth in the Forest, green moss and plants taking firm hold in Melandru's Hope and Mourning Veil Falls (in both locations the waters, incidentally were not turned into Jade, it seems)

Btw I had hoped the dredge at Urgoz would be sort of like those at Sorrow's Furnace, since we are fighting the corrupt wardens who are "It's good to see you again, <name>. We are even worse off than before, though I convinced many to withdraw from contact with the Kurzicks. We had thought to take this ruin as our home, at least for a while, but these creatures called wardens will not give us a moment's peace. And so more of my people die. I really cannot take much more of this, <name>. None of us can. Please destroy the wardens before they destroy our dream of freedom!" (Moleneaux)

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 04:19 AM // 04:19

For the water in the echovald, it was never turned into Jade, the water there was unaffected, only the ground and trees (and some wildlife) were turned to stone, and for the Jade sea, only the sea was turned into jade (which incased some marine life).

Also, the Dredge in Urgoz Warren were corrupted and driven made by Urgoz, which is why I thought it was Urgoz who was corrupting everything in the forest. It was just my thoughts and theories.

Edit: There is no real way to prove if the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest are returning to normal due to Urgoz/Kanaxai's death, Abaddon's death, Shiro's 2nd death (or his rebirth), or if it is simply because of time passing by. All those that I just mentioned are possibilities and it is impossible, at least to what I have knowledge of, to be sure which one of those is the truth. It could be that its the combination of some/all of those.

DarkFlame · Jun 09, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

What about Shiro? The EoTN manuscript is after the events of Factions. Shiro became mortal again and this time when he was killed, the Oracle came and petrified his body. And his soul was taken away for a time out with the Lich. Wouldn't those events rank higher as the cause of the Jade Wind, undoing itself both in the forest and the sea? And whats your source that Urgoz is actually and permanently killed?

Btw, I don't think Urgoz is the leader of the Wardens. Powerful, yes, but just a Warden and one of many. But the Jade Wind corrupted him so bad, that the corruption started leaking out and affecting those around him(hence all the madden folks around him). And he eventually set off into his own corner of the forest and his started his own cult, if you will, that was more aggressive then the rest of the Wardens, hence he was left alone by the Kuz(until our merry little band came along).

And even if Urgoz is gone, I don't think the Wardens have stopped being hostile(with those in his Warren returning to their normal hostility levels). The Factions manual states quite clearly that the Wardens were pissed off that they couldn't stop the Jade Wind, pissed off that it was humans who allowed it to happen and that they were trying to reverse it on their own. Even with the forest coming back to life, they still have every reason to "protect" the forest by driving away any human presence that can cause it to happen again.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFlame

What about Shiro? The EoTN manuscript is after the events of Factions. Shiro became mortal again and this time when he was killed, the Oracle came and petrified his body. And his soul was taken away for a time out with the Lich. Wouldn't those events rank higher as the cause of the Jade Wind, undoing itself both in the forest and the sea? And whats your source that Urgoz is actually and permanently killed?

If you look at my second post, I say in an edit that what you just said is a possibility. There are also other possibilities for the Jade Sea and Echovald Forest returning to normal, and as far as I can figure out, it is impossible to know which is the true cause. Also, I said that the death of Urgoz, lore wise, took place after shiro's second death

Quote:

Btw, I don't think Urgoz is the leader of the Wardens. Powerful, yes, but just a Warden and one of many. But the Jade Wind corrupted him so bad, that the corruption started leaking out and affecting those around him(hence all the madden folks around him). And he eventually set off into his own corner of the forest and his started his own cult, if you will, that was more aggressive then the rest of the Wardens, hence he was left alone by the Kuz(until our merry little band came along).

Urgoz is the leader of the wardens, Vash says "Urgoz and his wardens," as does Urgoz's Wiki page. "Urgoz and his wardens" means that he controls those wardens. Also, he is classified as a plant, not a warden. It could be that he just took another step towards being one with nature then the (other) wardens did though.

Quote:

And even if Urgoz is gone, I don't think the Wardens have stopped being hostile(with those in his Warren returning to their normal hostility levels). The Factions manual states quite clearly that the Wardens were pissed off that they couldn't stop the Jade Wind, pissed off that it was humans who allowed it to happen and that they were trying to reverse it on their own. Even with the forest coming back to life, they still have every reason to "protect" the forest by driving away any human presence that can cause it to happen again.

It really is unknown to us if the Wardens were still hostile after Urgoz's defeat, as the two elite missions are basically the very last thing storyline wise in Factions. I would have to say that since the Echovald Forest was still petrified, the wardens were still hostile, maybe not as hostile, but still hostile. I also never said that the wardens were hostile only because of Urgoz, but that he makes them more hostile and that he has kept them hostile by keeping the forest petrified. Also, once the forest comes back to life, they might not hate humans anymore, they might go back to only attacking those who harm the forest and the wildlife. However, that day might never actually come as Emperor Usoku removes all non-humans from Cantha, which would include the Wardens. So, again, hard to know if the Wardens become non-hostile after Urgoz's death, or if they would become non-hostile if the Echovald Forest returned to normal.

Mark Nevermiss · Jun 09, 2008, 05:22 AM // 05:22

The line between human and plant can be crossed, it seems, in the Echovald forest. Take the Juggernauts for example, they were once human but became constructs (plantoids?) whose lives are now bound to the Forever Trees.

Pesi · Jun 09, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

please do a research about dredge, im too lazy to read about wardens this morning tbh, gotta finish my tea then get to work.

molenin is my best mate, research him if u got alot more free time

gg nice work

Konig Des Todes · Jun 09, 2008, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pesi

please do a research about dredge, im too lazy to read about wardens this morning tbh, gotta finish my tea then get to work.

molenin is my best mate, research him if u got alot more free time

gg nice work

I actually have a list of things I want to try to research (I won't say what so that it'll come as a bigger surprise then Vizier Khilbron being the Lich

), I only research things that interest me, and the Dredge, not so much. However, if I get through the stuff I have listed and can't find anything else, I will consider it.

joshuarodger · Jun 13, 2008, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Guild Wars Manuscripts via The Official Wiki

The mysterious and ancient Wardens guard the areas of Cantha hit hardest by Shiro’s legacy. Protectors of the Echovald that was, they now guard the petrified forest it has become. They may once have been human, perhaps powerful druids or holy men, but they long ago merged with the spirit they served to become something altogether different.

Now they stand as the ultimate protectors of the Echovald that is. The clan claims the right of vengeance for what Shiro Tagachi wrought, and blames all humans for the Jade Wind that stripped the woods and sea of life, but inexplicably left the Wardens unharmed. Driven nearly mad, enraged at their failure to fulfill their only purpose, they work in their own mysterious ways to reverse the effects of Shiro’s death, but until they succeed, they will threaten any humans they encounter.

Wardens do not take names as such, but take their monikers from their rank in the clan’s natural hierarchy. The lowest ranked, least powerful Wardens are associated with the smallest forms and shapes of nature—leaves, moss, seashells, and so on. Higher up are those Wardens who take their name from particular trees or larger forms of sea life, while those protectors that lead the clans take the names of the seasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inscription on Melandru's Statue via The Official Wiki

And it was that a tribe of godless humans wandered the land. Where camped did they lay waste, senselessly destroying everything nearby.

And so the tribe set out to find another camp, when suddenly sprouted a wall of thorny branches, which blocked their exit.

Then saith Ewan, leader of the tribe, "Know ye our ways. Whosoever does magic in this tribe shall be put to death."

Yet none comes forward. Then, from the earth grows forth a large tree, and unfurling its branches, reveals the upper torso of a woman. Saith She, "I am Melandru, the Mother of earth and nature. Henceforth I bind ye to these lands. When they suffer, so shall ye suffer."

And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.

Scriptures of Melandru: 48 BE

Could it be that the wardens of echovald forest are actually the Stewards of Nature mentioned on Melandru's statue? All i really have to go by are the wikis, so if anything else is mentioned anywhere, i would like to know. kind of interesting if you ask me.

Dru Stratas · Jun 13, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

Could it be that the wardens of echovald forest are actually the Stewards of Nature mentioned on Melandru's statue? All i really have to go by are the wikis, so if anything else is mentioned anywhere, i would like to know. kind of interesting if you ask me.

It certainly makes sense, however the first quotation shows they could have been Holy Men, and the second shows they layed waste to where they camped and they were a godless tribe.
This is a really good link however, and thanks for finding it, I just don't know whether or not it fits

Natures Spirt · Jun 13, 2008, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Maybe Melandru is the first warden she's a lot like them protecting the land and such

joshuarodger · Jun 13, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

maybe a better link here. i did use search before i posted this topic. not sure why this didn't come up.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10297091

joshuarodger · Jun 13, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

i didn't see where in the scriptures of mel it said that the druids were these "stewards of nature". it's a possible explanation and, of course as you say, it's really impossible to know for sure. i thought that the urgoz and his wardens may have been ewan and his tribe originally since they are the protectors of the echovald. the wardens themselves aren't particularly plantlike but urgoz sure is. i don't know. just another theory.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 13, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Something I noticed for the search thing, is that it has to be the word exactly. I'm guessing that you put in "Wardens' Origin" or "Warden" or "Wardens'" which then would have come up with nothing.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 13, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

It is never stated outright that they are the same, but the scriptures say that Ewan and his men "sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees." Which means that they would look like the Oakhearts and therefore Druids.

And as being "stewards of Nature" that means that they care about it, and since they are trapped like that for eternity, some more devout druids would give up their flesh to become one with the Maguuma Jungle, the less devout are probably the Oakhearts that we fight in the game.

So the connection is that where the Ewan and his men became Druids by force, Wardens became so by their choice. It being their choice proves your idea that Ewan and his men are Wardens wrong, and the Wardens don't have branches coming out of them (exception of Urgoz of course).

joshuarodger · Jun 13, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

It is never stated outright that they are the same, but the scriptures say that Ewan and his men "sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees." Which means that they would look like the Oakhearts and therefore Druids.

And as being "stewards of Nature" that means that they care about it, and since they are trapped like that for eternity, some more devout druids would give up their flesh to become one with the Maguuma Jungle, the less devout are probably the Oakhearts that we fight in the game.

So the connection is that where the Ewan and his men became Druids by force, Wardens became so by their choice. It being their choice proves your idea that Ewan and his men are Wardens wrong, and the Wardens don't have branches coming out of them (exception of Urgoz of course).

nowhere that i see, does it say Wardens chose to do anything. it says they merged. that doesn't make it voluntary. it is also just speculation on what they were or did before becoming wardens. it also says nothing about ewan becoming druids. it says stewards of nature. there is also nothing i have read anywhere calling the druids the stewards of nature. i don't believe either of us can say they are the same thing. of course, neither of us can say they aren't the same thing either.

lol. btw, nothing you can write or say here proves anything. it's all just conjecture.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 13, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

nowhere that i see, does it say Wardens chose to do anything. it says they merged. that doesn't make it voluntary.

True point, but I never said it was fact, but my opinion.

Quote:

lol. btw, nothing you can write or say here proves anything. it's all just conjecture.

As I just said, never said it was fact, my opinion and observation. and you made your argument sound like it was fact too, just so you know. -mumbles- hypocrite

joshuarodger · Jun 14, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

As I just said, never said it was fact, my opinion and observation. and you made your argument sound like it was fact too, just so you know.

let's review my post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

i didn't see where in the scriptures of mel it said that the druids were these "stewards of nature". it's a possible explanation and, of course as you say, it's really impossible to know for sure. i thought that the urgoz and his wardens may have been ewan and his tribe originally since they are the protectors of the echovald. the wardens themselves aren't particularly plantlike but urgoz sure is. i don't know. just another theory.

maybe some of those bolded parts did make it sound like i was stating theory as fact. you may be right.

whereas you said

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

It being their choice proves your idea that Ewan and his men are Wardens wrong,

you did say in your OP that it was impossible to know for sure, but in the post quoted above you sure made it sound like fact.

anyway, i'm just giving you a hard time, man. i actually think your theory is more probable than mine.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 14, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

First, touche.

Second, I am a little aggravated from yesterday and my statements may have been biased and not fully true. But whatever.